Comments on: What exactly is meant by “self-gift”?

By: Totus2us

Totus2us — Thu, 15 Jul 2010 23:35:10 +0000

Thank you so much. This is very helpful and confirms what I have long suspected. God bless you.

By: danburke

danburke — Wed, 14 Jul 2010 19:40:44 +0000

Yes – St. Teresa herself indicated that she struggled with what is called katophatic prayer – the approach encouraged by St. Ignatius and others including imagination and exploration of the scenes of Jesus life. She indicated that this approach is good, but that some rather may need to use something like lectio divina or spiritual reading to draw themselves into prayer. I personally use both approaches depending on how distracted or disposed I am to effective prayer. So, to answer your question, if someone struggled with using their imagination I would still gently explore attempts to do this over time. As well, I would advise them to find scripture texts or spiritual reading that compelled them to express their affection toward Christ. The liturgy of the hours can sometimes be helpful here. This is essentially mental prayer using a text and then departing from the text whenever prompted to engage with God regarding what has stirred our hearts toward him. If someone is in a more advanced state (late purgative or beyond) I would talk with them about simply placing themselves in the presence of God and expressing their love to him… All this gets very personalized depending on the state of a person's soul and their experience in prayer etc. Does this help?

By: Totus2us

Totus2us — Wed, 14 Jul 2010 19:23:55 +0000

Thank you danburke. I was kind of hoping you would also talk a little bit about how not all can, or are “led,” to do “imaginary” prayer, how not all can image Jesus or Mary, etc. I'm not talking about substituting centering prayer for this. I'm just talking about the graces God gives to be able to do something like the Ignatian exercises. I think great harm can be done by directors who push directees to do something they can't do. What would be an alternative approach to direction in this case?

By: danburke

danburke — Wed, 14 Jul 2010 03:40:54 +0000

You are welcome Joan – thank you for your obvious desire to pursue Christ.

By: joan

joan — Wed, 14 Jul 2010 03:26:02 +0000

As always, edifying, even though your references exceed my knowledge! Thank you for taking the time.

By: danburke

danburke — Wed, 14 Jul 2010 02:46:18 +0000

Well – I am generally not convinced that this should be a post so I will respond briefly here. I think that these distinctions (as with infused versus acquired contemplation) often serve to make things less clear and to provide unnecessary distractions for the pilgrim seeking to know and love Christ. If you hold to the magisterium of the Church, and the teachings of the doctors of the Church, particularly those saints associated with mysticism, you would also find it difficult to follow the path of those who emphasize apophatic prayer. St. Teresa actually mocks those who seek to empty their minds etc. The church has also condemned much of this thinking when it suppressed Michael Molinos and other quietists. The wrong question is, “which approach should I use.” The right question is, “how can I better know, love, and serve Christ?” Then, following the path of the katophatic way along with ascetic practices, we eventually will attain to the state where we are best disposed to experience something like an apophatic dimension of prayer but it would then have nothing to do our will – we are in the infused category of activity that is solely governed and distributed by God. So, any question that has an answer that has us somehow choosing or exercising a method to achieve the apophatic state is a problematic question. This, in my opinion is the fundamental deception found in most so called “Centering Prayer” practices… so – that is my short answer for your consideration…

By: joan

joan — Wed, 14 Jul 2010 01:50:37 +0000

A comment (totus2us) requesting a post on apophatic/katophatic spirituality under the “self-gift” post of 7/12/10, and your reply to that comment.

By: danburke

danburke — Tue, 13 Jul 2010 22:24:27 +0000

Joan – Because of the limitations of the software I use I can't see what you are reacting to. What is it that you are looking for further comment on?

By: Joan

Joan — Tue, 13 Jul 2010 22:19:11 +0000

I would like to see a post on this as well. You bloggers excel at presenting these types of concepts in a palatable and concrete form. This keeps us from wandering down dead-end roads by mis-applying spiritual ideas in our ignorance (ok, maybe just me!). Even if some readers are unfamiliar with those terms, I think knowing the ideas is useful. Plus, I would like to hear your distinct opinions.

By: danburke

danburke — Tue, 13 Jul 2010 19:36:18 +0000

Though I have distinct opinions on the matter, this is a challenging and potentially abstract or esoteric subject for our readers. What do you think the benefit would be to our average reader?